Well, here you have 1818. There, it was. Why? This question has obsessed people for almost 200 years. Second Question: Where was the Immortal Beloved letter written? Beside all the work he is known for, the composer once wrote a famous love letter to a nameless beloved and the movie tries to find out who this beloved was. And I also found another letter from Therese to Josephine. Beethoven once threw marriage proposal on Therese Malfatti, which got rejected. Letter with the subject – Immortal Beloved. O God, why must one go away from what one loves so, and yet my life in W. as it is now is a miserable life. So Josephine was left alone and there were great financial problems. DANIEL ADAM MALTZ: Grüß Sie from Vienna, Austria. In Beethoven's estate there is a letter that allows science and art to be speculated. What do we know about Josephine and why would Beethoven have been so enraptured by her? Elise – the mystery woman in Beethoven’s life, is still an unsolved mystery. And what I've been doing recently is watching all these YouTube stories. There is more than a hint of voyeurism in the acute desire to “know”. They're all saying there's no proof that there was any contact between Josephine and Beethoven later on. And so that's where it remained. MALTZ: We're skipping forward now, there was another cryptic comment that has stumped Beethoven researchers for years. What are your thoughts about a DNA test? for (i = 0; i < document.links.length;i++) { Our guest, musicologist Dr. Rita Steblin, finally identifies the correct woman. MALTZ: This is where the story gets particularly interesting to me and I think to anybody who has an interest in this subject is that there is more to this encounter on July 3rd in Prague in 1812, that Beethoven had with Josephine. They'd be gone forever. The identity of Beethoven’s “Immortal Beloved” (more accurately translated as “Eternally Beloved”) has confounded historians for two centuries and even inspired a movie. This obsession was evident in the way –after his death-- his body was studied, in a most meticulous autopsy. Beethoven was known to love many women, and as his friend F.G. Wegeler once wrote, "Beethoven was never out of love." MALTZ: You mentioned in one of your articles that Minona is buried in Vienna's Central Cemetery. In it, he writes of his unconditional love and devotion to someone he refers to as his Unsterbliche Geliebte, or Immortal Beloved. Other theories were made, giving diverse answers between 1801 et 1807. Beethoven's love letters to his immortal beloved, 1812 L udwig van Beethoven (1770-1827) was a German composer and pianist. Why has the Beethoven Immortal Beloved letter captured imaginations? Long after his death he was exhumed twice, his bones and skull were measured and weighed again, and then photographed when it was finally possible… It is as if those men cherished the hope to find some kind of clue. Before, he did not live in Vienna, and he states the fact that he lives there in his letter. And we know, in fact, I found documents in Brno that Stackelberg had made a quick trip to Prague in 1811 to borrow money from a banker there. Whom did Beethoven love so passionately? Love demands everything and is quite right, so it is for me with you, for you with me — only you forget so easily, that I must live for you and for me — were we quite united, you would notice this painful feeling as little as I should . . Beethoven has not finished astounding us, surprising us and enchanting us! Can our love persist otherwise than through sacrifices, than by not demanding everything? Good morning, on 7 JulyEven in bed my ideas yearn towards you, my Immortal Beloved, here and there joyfully, then again sadly, awaiting from Fate, whether it will listen to us. And then exactly nine months after the letter to the Immortal Beloved, you have her seventh child born, Minona. So what other woman meets that? And then other people told me it's not possible to determine fatherhood from such old bones but, Malte Böcker, the business head at the Beethoven House in Bonn, wrote me just recently an email saying, ‘I'd like to let you know that I have secured Minona's gravesite and nothing will happen to her bones.’. It is evident that they were looking for clues in the wrong places to find the identity of his Immortal Beloved. ', STEBLIN: Yeah, it's like the French 'tu'. } Where do I come from? You presented some interesting similarities between letters known to be written by Beethoven to Josephine and the 'Immortal Beloved' letter. And I had heard that the grave site was up for sale. Anyway, what is real beyond any doubt is that the composer really loved a particular woman very much, and that he loved her for a long time. Well, the emperor was in Prague on July 1st and so I think that she wanted to try to solve these financial problems by speaking with the emperor and speaking with relatives of her husband. In these letters, Beethoven uses the informal, familiar 'you' to address his (Immortal Beloved. And these are love letters from Beethoven to Josephine that he wrote between about 1804 and 1809 – this was the period after Deym had died. Dr. Steblin, thank you for joining me. Final scene from the movie "Inmortal beloved" about Beethoven's life. The proposed possibilities as to the identity of this mystery woman are numerous, indeed too numerous for one man! Art is something related to the soul, to the Sacred, to the Divine. Beethoven still has them waiting and hoping in vain to be able to open his secrets. And a lot of scholars in the 20th century claimed that this letter 'A' referred to the Immortal Beloved. Because she was still fertile, and all of her other earlier six children were conceived immediately after she'd slept with her first husband and then her second husband. I mean, I can't say that I was the first to come up with Josephine. Written by Smoothhoney1265 Plot Summary | Plot Synopsis Their love letters have a lot in common with the famous letter, and she was a very beautiful, cultured, musical young woman. The life and death of the legendary Ludwig van Beethoven. And so Beethoven now was writing letters to the widowed Josephine Brunsvik. Upon his death, a love letter was found among his possessions. But because Beethoven couldn't lay claim to his own child, he then took over this nephew. Yes, I have determined to wander about for so long far away, until I can fly into your arms and call myself quite at home with you, can send my soul enveloped by yours into the realm of spirits — yes, I regret, it must be. MALTZ: It would seem to suggest that four years later it was still and has only ever been this one woman. STEBLIN: We know from Therese Brunsvik's memoirs that there was a serious fight between Josephine and her second husband, Stackelberg, in June of 1812 and that Stackelberg got really angry and left. Everything in Immortal Beloved revolves around the mysterious letter 'An die unsterbliche Geliebte', which was found after Beethoven's death in 1827. That is why the American hypothesis about the Immortal Beloved letter is completely unacceptable, absolutely psychologically unlikely. Dr. Steblin, I would like to thank you personally for your research. Solve the long-disputed mystery of Beethoven’s Immortal Beloved, Unearth details of this woman’s life and her irresistible charm, Understand why Beethoven never sent the letter, Be shocked by the surprising end result of this romance. MALTZ: So up to this point, we've discussed Beethoven longing after Josephine for years, a surprise encounter where they spent the night together in Prague and the Immortal Beloved letter that Beethoven never sent, where he pleaded for Josephine to find a way for them to be together. What a life! And he later said that as soon as he saw Josephine he said she is going to be my wife. Now, we have proof that Josephine was in Baden for weeks. I mean, you have this case where she did not allow him into her house and hid herself from him. The first is easy: "... my life in W. is now a miserable life...". And because I did so much work on papers in the archives, especially in Jindrichuv Hradec where you have all the papers that were sent to Josephine, I noticed that her husband Stackelberg always referred to with just 'St' that the 'St'… I used to misread it as an 'A' and then that gave me the idea… Hey, this might not be 'A,' this might've been a mistake by the copyist and it really was Auf diese Art mit Stackleberg everything is going to ruin. The letter’s unnamed recipient — Beethoven’s “Immortal Beloved” — remains a mystery, and continues to generate debate. STEBLIN: Yes. Well, we know that Beethoven knew Josephine since 1799 so five years before would disqualify her. And just recently the business manager of the Beethoven House in Bonn, Malte Böcker, wanted to have all of my correspondence with this Gesundheitsamt because, in the end, it was sort of like… well, who's going to pay for this? . He never sent this letter. His longtime secretary Anton Felix Schindler takes it upon himself to track down this person to whom Beethoven has willed his fortune. It is possible that the relation between them was ultimately impossible for the restrictions that the time put on such situations, and then the relation had receded to a spiritual level. And then they said, pietätlos, there's no piety because you'd have to exhume Beethoven as well to make a study. In the end, he does not commit suicide (just as well for the sake of music), but he keeps this call of distress for 25 years, until his death, with the letter for his Immortal Beloved…. Beethoven is buried there as well, of course. To be more exact, Beethoven in fact wrote to 'The immortal loved one' and not 'The Immortal Beloved'. And so she was in a sense forced to marry this baron. Just now I perceive that letters must be posted first thing early. So when did Josephine marry Stackelberg? The Immortal Beloved can be at ease, her secret is well kept... Generally speaking, I widely agree with Dom’s opinions on the my Immortal Beloved matter. If someone has only read his diaries, his letters, his moral writings… He would consider such an act, a terrible dishonorable behavior. STEBLIN: Well, she does admit that she was at some distance and was trying to listen in onto this conversation. In this, I am again in agreement with my French friend: in a way, I am extremely glad that with all the research invested in the Immortal Beloved riddle, our culture academia failed miserably in revealing this particular mystery. DR. RITA STEBLIN: It's a pleasure to be here. By the way, the relationship of our composer with God was always very close, as we can read and listen in so many places…. And so they were looking for a woman whose first name started with 'A.' Copyright © 2021 Daniel Adam Maltz. MALTZ: Today's cake is a Schoko-Mousse Herz, or chocolate mousse heart. Therefore, a total of 10 pages make up the Immortal Beloved letter. She was now running this museum and he continued to give her lessons. Was it never sent? The descriptions of the appearance of his internal organs were carefully made and recorded. Once the date has been decided, the place follows naturally: Beethoven went for hydrotherapy at Teplitz (Teplice - about 80 km North-West of Prague). You will get over it all the more as you know my faithfulness to you; never another one can own my heart, never — never! Third Question: Of which towns does he speak of in the my Immortal Beloved letters? My bosom is full, to tell you much — there are moments when I find that speech is nothing at all. And then working on her papers in Jindrichuv Hradec, I found some diaries, not really chronological, but some of the entries are June 1812 and one of the entries says, ‘I want to speak to Liebert in Prague.’ And we also know from her sister Therese's memoirs that Josephine had made a plan for 1812. STEBLIN: Well, I mean, what a scandal. In Beethoven’s unsent love letter to his ‘Immortal Beloved’ he wrote: My angel, my all, my own self — only a few words today, and those in pencil (with yours)… Can our … It would have meant that there had been an intimate love relationship. Then it fits Josephine. And I think that was to declare his paternity, but instead he didn't want to cause a scandal for Josephine. And remaining frustrated. It is as if by knowing what kind of woman loved him and was loved by him, some part of the mystery of his enormous spirit would be finally revealed to us. With this in mind, the questions of certain researchers leave me wondering: - Did he know one or many women, or did he not know any? These were requirements that Beethoven himself “joked” about on some occasion. I'm going back to Vienna.’ And so that's why he never sent the letter. The life and death of the legendary Ludwig van Beethoven. So it is with you, you with me." I think that the riddle of the Immortal Beloved letter is something of this kind of issue. Fourth Question: What can we deduce from this familiar tone? His ideas and hypothesis are most perceptive and sensitive. How?! MALTZ: Especially a married woman, I imagine. As a last testament this document may have been faulty, but as a biographical puzzle it was a masterstroke, inspiring two centuries of fevered speculations, of which this … Written in the summer of 1812 from the spa town of Teplice, the letter has generated a great deal of speculation and … And there's some other passages in his diary where around the birth of Minona where he says, ‘Oh, I will have to leave Vienna.’. STEBLIN: Well the name comes from Ossian, that Gaelic Bard, and appears in Goethe Sorrows of Young Werther, and is the daughter of a musician. STEBLIN: Josephine came to Vienna in May of 1799 with her mother and her older sister Therese, to have piano lessons with Beethoven. Beethoven proves that art offers something beyond the physical or the material world. if (document.links[i].href.indexOf("/recommended/") != -1) { As I say, you can't at this point determine fatherhood, but maybe there are other ways. It's actually the first entry. MALTZ: What motivated your search for Beethoven's Immortal Beloved? But knowing Fritz had said end of April that they'd already gotten to Baden, there I found – in an earlier list – Josephine. She was in her eighties in 1920 when she brought out the book. But there exist two conditions: July the 6th must have been a Monday, and Beethoven's timetable must have allowed him to be out of Vienna on this day. Written in pencil, it is addressed to an unknown woman with whom Beethoven was apparently in a love relationship and to whom he refers at one point as his "Immortal Beloved." The entire letter is written on 10 small pages, in Beethoven's rather inconsistent handwriting. 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